defend the takedown or just know its going to happen and have a plan?
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 18:12
i have been working with some great wrestler for several months now. they have tremendous take downs skills compared to mine. bottom line, my sprawl is almost nonexistent since i am not athletic and havent put a lot of time in it. so i pretty much know the takedown is coming. i have gotten decent at baiting and have started thinking about gameplans for the mat. we are not in competitions, so should i just be working on strategies to gain position once we go to the floor. or should i be trying to defend the shoot?
my thinking has gone to the idea that if i work on adjusting to the takedown (which ever one it may be) i would be in a better spot than if tried to sprawl. i am simply not fast enough to block a strong wrestlers ability to close the gap. if it was an average player i could handle the defense.
i just want to see what you guys thought about planning ahead for mat work or overextending my ability and trying to stop the inevitable.
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 18:35
#2
I am 150lbs, give or take a few, and most of the guys I train with have at least 25lbs on me. I am a firm believer in defending the takedown whenever possible. It's one thing to have a really good bottom game in case you're reversed and end up on your back, but I never advocate going to your back purposefully. I try to keep top position as much as possible. You're not fast enough to block a shot because you haven't worked your sprawl enough. Get with one of the wrestlers after class and ask him to help you with your sprawl. He shoots, you sprawl, get up, repeat. One of the drills I used to do was for top positions (same principle applies - repetition). One person would try to hold top, and if you got back to guard or reversed, we reset and repeated it until the bell rang.
So to summarize....yes, work your sprawl and general takedown defense and try to avoid going to your back. Guard pulling doesn't have serious consequences in training, but that's the last thing I want to do in a live combat situation.
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 18:39
#3
sprawl, move, make yourself harder to take down.
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 18:46
#4
LF CAPT. #065
agreed and agreed.
-Jimmy
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 18:48
#5
Take your lumps and learn some wrasslin. Pulling guard is what your body will do when you get confused and spazz out in fear of the takedown. That's your safety net, so use it to be fearless and try to stuff the takedown.
Tue, 08/31/2010 - 04:09
#6
thanks for the comments guys.
i used to be able to stop the shoot around 3 years ago. but i just quit working it b/c the guys i normally worked with all left. i have been relying on angling out and stepping back AFTER the legs get hooked. which sounds retarded but its the closest thing to a sprawl i have been able get.
Tue, 08/31/2010 - 06:25
#7
I'd advise working on all aspects of your game. You've identified the sprawl as a technical weakness, you should keep working on that so you have that option in your toolbox, but you should explore other options in case the sprawl isn't the right tool for the job.
I'm sure you've met the wrestling guy who's just a little ball of fast-twitch muscle - unless you're also a ball lof fast-twitch muslce, sprawling agaisnt that guy is low-percentage.
So I'd advise working the full range of responses - work on your sprawl, work on distance and angles, using spiral motion, counter-throwing, transistioning from being takendown into offensive bottom game... I'm sure you get the idea.
Sun, 09/05/2010 - 20:03
#8
The answer your looking for is called a counter. Whenever someone goes for any move they have to expose a vulnerability somewhere. A counter takes advantage of that weakness. All wrestlers know this and are proficient at counters and minimize their time exposed. Find a common move he uses. Seek help in finding an effective counter. Drill that counter approximately 5000 times and you stand a descent chance at stuffing him on only that single move, that is unless he counters your counter which is very likely.
Sun, 09/05/2010 - 20:37
#9
Your defense if viewed as only defense will only delay the inevitable. Your defense is your offense. It's a moment for you (unexposed) to capitalize on his weakness while it is exposed! When you sprawl reach around his face with your knife hand and peel his head back until you've heard his last vertebrae pop. If your defense isn't part of an attack your loosing. You don't need a partner to practice sprawling. Jump up and kick your legs up and back. Catch yourself in the pushup position and back on your feet. Drill this about 20,000 times and he will probably stop shooting on you and start working throws and other takedowns. Then we will work on countering those. Are you seeing how this works?
Sun, 09/05/2010 - 20:41
#10
You do know that when I say drill 20,000 times. I am not kidding but I don't mean all in one day, right?
Sun, 09/05/2010 - 20:58
#11
Another thing you can do is purposely expose something obvious that he will go for and use a corresponding counter that you are good at. Kind of like leading him into a trap.
You can also do the opposite like throw a basic move like a headlock which you know he will counter with a duck under and prepare to soup your ass, while you keep going past his head from the headlock to the single leg. You will have countered his counter that you more or less tricked him into doing.
This is the mindset of a good wrestler. If you can train yourself to think like that you will win maybe not all the time but you will win.
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 08:19
#12
LF CAPT.#083
Lateral motion can make it a little bit harder for them to shoot, unless they are really good off of angles. I always take the things I know that I am horrible at and devote at least a week a mont to really drilling said skill. Dont leave out everything else, just make that the main ingredient in the stew =)
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 11:03
#13
Your posture can have a lot to do with how susceptible you are to the TD. Notice the difference between BJJ posture and a wrestlers posture. Wrestlers curl up into a tiny ball so they can shoot in like a bullet and also sprawl instantly. BJJ grapplers tend to be very loose for different reactions with different limbs because there is a larger variety of ways to go to the ground.
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 13:20
#14
I agree with what everyone seems to be saying. Take advantage of having a wrestler to work with by improving your stand up game. That does not mean that you have to constantly be sprawling though. You can find other ways to take that part of his game away. For example, due to my bad back, my sprawl is not great, but I rarely get taken down by a double leg takedown. Why? Because I press and get into clinch range to nullify that particular technique.
The difference between that and what you were suggesting in your original post is that I am not conceding the takedown, just playing my game. You should work on your sprawl, but it does not need to be your main focus. Having a strong strategy for the takedown portion of the game should be.
Dave
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 18:45
#15
^another path besides the sprawl. pay special attention to the second variation; you can hit pretty much anytime goes for a leg dive. at the very least you'll facilitate a scramble. my judo sensei is extremely adept at this. if you're going no-gi, you can still use it with a good kick-over and a chinstrap grip (or grabbing the waistband 
).
--nick
10th dan in parnes jiu-jitsu.
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 22:39
#16
when defending against a shot, where it might be a single, double, or hi-c. there are 4 lines of def. foot work is first, then comes your hands, followed by the head, and last the sprawl. now there is a single legged sprawl and a double legged sprawl, both require you to throw your hips into them. little tip to help with the sprawls, if your in the shooting stance with your left leg forward and your right leg back. take your right arm straighten it out even the fingers. when your fingers touch the ground your low enough, and in the best stance for shooting and sprawling. this might only be really helpful more so for a wrestler than for a bjj. but hopefully it will help and give you a better chance.
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 05:36
#17
"^another path besides the sprawl. pay special attention to the second variation; you can hit pretty much anytime goes for a leg dive. at the very least you'll facilitate a scramble. my judo sensei is extremely adept at this. if you're going no-gi, you can still use it with a good kick-over and a chinstrap grip (or grabbing the waistband )."
Another grip you can use instead of the belt grip is to hook over the head and under the armpit. It's a pretty tight connection, you just have to be careful becuase you partner's neck can be exposed to more stress.
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 21:16
#18
The sprawl I believe is key. As a wrestler turned JJ player, I can tell you that the most exhausting thing for a wrestler is fighting through a sprawl. Pulling guard and letting it happen is fine, but i feel that you're giving them a reprieve if you just let them take you like that. When we work shoots in my BJJ class, you sprawl, stuff and move.
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Good post.
The way I look at training, is that its training. I need to find out what I'm bad at, and work it til I'm good at it. I'd say ask the wrestlers for some advice on stopping the TD, and ask if they could work with you on it for a little bit before or after class, and keep trying to defend it. If they help you with it, the results can be nothing but positive. And when you finally defend it, it'll make it all that much sweeter (whether it takes 2 months, or 2 years)
But definitely know ahead of time where your going to end up if the defense fails, and plan accordingly.
Just my .02
-Jimmy
