defending and dealing with knife attacks.....very close range
i was running through a few scenarios today and that i would pose a question to lockflowers. when defending a knife attack, do you concentrate on the disarm itself or do you focus on destroying the aggressor. knife wielding thugs are common here and they are not "swingers", they are shankers. VERY up close and personal. the average disarm just wont be effective as most of the time, as i have seen, the knife doesnt present itself until it is less than a fore arms distance away. i taped up a box cutter so there werent any edges that could damage the mats and that is what we have been using for knife scenarios. most jack-legs here dont carry pocket knives like regular folks. its either a box cutter or a VERY small knife that is concealable in the palm of the hand. usually 3 inches or less when open.
of course distance is your best friend but not if you dont see it coming
any thoughts?
Chances are you are going to get cut, priority #1 is to not get cut someplace vital. We are talking major blood vessels that run generally on the inside of the limbs. Think of all the veins on the inside of your forearm and biceps, if those get cut you need a hospital now. Same goes for the inside of the legs and the neck of course. I would suggest isolating the knife from the attacker. This does not mean that there is a mystic way to strip his knife from him, but getting your body between his knife and his body isolates the power he has, thick kamoras and armbars. Just basing this on my kali training and what worked for me. Most importantly as the instructor always told us if in the struggle the knife slips and you kill him...... oh well better him then you.
Gotta control the knife arm. Even if you can't pull off a disarm, maintaining wrist control somehow while you wail on the guy with another part of your body is a must if you're up close and personal. We work a lot of knife defense in ARMA, and it almost always breaks down that way.
Like machine says, I was taught avoid critical organs and arteries. Its good to have a feel for when you're in the danger zone, and when you're not.
Concentrating too much on the wrist can be dangerous. If you both sense the wrist is the area of focus, its pretty easy for the guy to switch hands quickly and shank.
If I was up against someone skilled, I might try to jam the knife hand and throw a quick punch or kick. When you got the guy's focus off his knife and more on getting hit, go for the wrist.
Don't
i think against a knife your 2 biggest priorities are protecting your vitals and controlling the knife. Like Dray said even if you cant disarm it, do everything you can to control that arm. When we work knife defenses i go to the russian 2 on 1 a lot, and it works pretty good.
-Jimmy
2 on 1 lol,
never thought of that. good one. what can you do from there. i better give it a try. personally i would run. even the gracies say run, or would look for a stick or something hard.
what do you think of the gracie knife defense system.
agreed on running. But sometimes its just not that easy.
for the 2 on 1, I feel like it gives good control on the arm, and can help to start working for disarms.
Never seen the Gracie's knife defense system.
-Jimmy
I like to start with saying "there is no good knife defense." Cuz all that crap you see in the movies probably ain't gonna happen. All those 1 handed catches are very dangerous, if you miss, an organ is getting slashed.
I would say, as others, protect your vitals and get control of the hand with the knife. Position 1st. Protect your core.
The one place I've always felt you have an advantage against a weapon, those who have a weapon tend to put all their eggs in that basket. Once you get a good hold of that hand they will often do everything they can to get it back. While you can attack while controlling the arm. Kick/Knee to the goodies, headbutt, stomp, disarm, trips.
I like to start with saying "there is no good knife defense." Cuz all that crap you see in the movies probably ain't gonna happen. All those 1 handed catches are very dangerous, if you miss, an organ is getting slashed.
I would say, as others, protect your vitals and get control of the hand with the knife. Position 1st. Protect your core.
The one place I've always felt you have an advantage against a weapon, those who have a weapon tend to put all their eggs in that basket. Once you get a good hold of that hand they will often do everything they can to get it back. While you can attack while controlling the arm. Kick/Knee to the goodies, headbutt, stomp, disarm, trips.
True Story:
(And I'm going to give you all a full disclosure. I am no expert nor am I claiming this is full proof. I am sure that many on Lockflow here have more training and experience, especially our members in the armed services. But this is exactly how I would respond, and have responded, based on what I was taught for right or wrong. And I have one experience of being attacked with a knife I will share that with you after Part 1 in Part 2 of this comment. So take it however you will. I only speak from what I know.)
PART 1
My Father's Father(aka my Grandpa) was a Knife Fighter in Mexico. I never knew the man and have never even seen a picture of him. My dad doesn't own one nor has he seen him since he was 15 years old. But he taught my Dad some things and my Dad in turn has taught my brother and I some things. I'm going to kinda prioritize them:
One: If at all possible... Give up your wallet or whatever he is asking for and RUN! A knife fight has to be assumed to be a fight to the death and your life is worth more than anything material you may possess that the lunatic wants.
Two: If running is not an option you should be carrying a GUN! It's worst case scenario time and THE ANTI-GUN a.k.a. PRO-GET-YOURSELF-KILLED lobby, have lied to you and tried to convinced you this day would never come but low and behold you have a knife wielding lunatic in front of you. DONT MAKE IT A FAIR FIGHT! He or she is trying to take your life. Know your state's self-defense laws! Get your concealed to carry permits.
Two: If running is not an option you should always carry a knife, a Big Knife! Something bigger than a stiletto or butterfly or box cutter. People who attack with knives, outside of an actual knife duel, is likely a coward and will run at the sight of a more impressive weapon. Again don't make it a fair fight!
Three: Say you don't have a gun or knife or baton on you. If at all possible try and wear thicker long sleeved jackets and levi pants. Also, like everyone said before protect your vitals, the insides of your appendages and major organs. If you can take off the jacket and wrap it around one of your arms you can protect a little bit and make an escape. But in the case there is no escape but to fight this is what i was told.
First things first, UNDERSTAND YOU ARE IN A FIGHT TO THE DEATH AND BE PREPARED TO KILL YOUR ASSAILANT.(My dad says you have to let the demon out, the one everyone has that is chained up somewhere deep inside has to take over.)
And SECOND BE CONFIDENT AND QUICK IN YOUR ACTIONS.
TAKE CONTROL OF THE DISTANCE. Don't continue walking backwards, you have to make your stand. Step back when necessary only, but never walking backwards. I was taught to look the guy in the eyes and the solar-plexis interchangeably. Because in a knife fight the majority of the time they look where they are trying to hit but you can't get hypnotized by their eyes because you may misjudge your distance. USE FEINTS TO ESTABLISH DISTANCE. You have to make him commit. Because once he does he is open to get HIT or Grabbed or Taken down. You have to kind of make him think you are going to either hit him or grab the knife but then do the opposite. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE KNIFE!!! THAT IS THE GOAL!
YOU HAVE TO BE 2 STEPS AHEAD LITERALLY. Ex. (1) you open your hands up and feint at him making him think your going to grab him, he tries to slash instead of stab but you are anticipating it. **note: he is going to most likely only going to attack with the knife so you will pick up on his movements and rhythm.** You may have to do this a few times until you have your best opening but once you commit to the attack YOU HAVE TO DO IT WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE. You STRIKE HIM VITALLY ONCE! AND IMMEDIATELY GO FOR THE KNIFE. AND ISOLATE THE KNIFE. If you can't wrestle it free right away you must gouge, bite, attack the groin, headbutt, elbow, and/or knee! DO WHAT MUST BE DONE because you are inside that distance where those to techniques are applicable. This must be done if at all possible while still isolating the knife.
DO NOT STOP UNTIL IT IS FINISHED. Whatever that may be. He is knocked out, choked out, broken and bloodied, or dead. Nothing short of TOTAL INCAPACITATION. Remember don't worry about taking his life because he isn't worried about taking yours.
PART 2 (personal experience)
Frat party at undisclosed California University 2004 my sophomore year in college: Drinking just started the party just started its about an hour in. I try and always wear, and I was this night, pants but must always be able to kick in them, SORRY NO SAGGING ALLOWED! No Jacket on this time but I had a thermal on. And my combat boots I got from the ARMY SURPLUS, kick enhancers I call 'em. I was standing in front of the keg trying to pour some beers for some ladies I was talking too, a guy thought it would be cool to shove his way to the front and knocked really hard into one of the ladies.
She turned around and cussed at him, he didn't like it and shoved her. He seemed a little tanked and was probably cross-faded way before he got here because no one knew him and didn't see him till now. He was my size about my build. I tried to stand up for the girl by telling him to calm down and just get out of here, some of my friends were in the frat so I had that right, he does this thing where he put one of his hands in his pocket and started smiling and talking trash... it was an immediate warning sign to me took a step back to check my stance for kicking.
He was pointing at me with one hand while the other was in the pocket, started calling me out and I just said I don't want any trouble but it's not right to shove girls around stuff like that. All the time he is looking around, i think trying to distract me. People kind of backed away from our area forming an open circle in the crowd where just him and I were they could feel the tension. Then he started talking louder and turned his back to me, once he wasn't looking I took off my thermal and wrapped it around my LEFT ARM and put about two arms lengths between us where he was about arms length away before. I Suspected the knife luckily.
He turned around, I told him to leave with more deliberateness and determination, I was ready. He pulled out the knife and started talking more shit, saying he was gunna cut me and people started running out of the place screaming, everything was happening soo fast. He started slashing at me not stabbing I tried to keep my distance pretending to grab at him, he kept it up chasing me around the room. I kept feinting and making him think. In all about 10-15 seconds I'd say this had to have happened. Then against the current of people rushing out of the room this guy, one of the alumns of the frat, a guy in his 30's, came in and yelled, " Hey Mother F$#%$#!" And broke a bottle on the wall which got the guy with the knife to hesitate, turn his head, and avert his eyes for a second.
Then without thinking I kicked him with a round house kick to the side of the head just as his head was turning back to face me, with the toe of my combat boot, I can't describe the sound the blow made other than it wasn't a smack it was a thud sound kinda like "Thaaawwk!". He smacked the floor with his face when he went down. Right then and there I just looked at the guy that came to my rescue and he hurried toward me and said, " Just get out of here we will deal with the cops." I was sort of frozen in disbelief, but he shook me and said, "GO!" I said thanks and left.
I ran to my car and booked it to my friends pad who I was spending the weekend with, who was also in the frat, I was soo juiced on adrenaline I was shaking. But not until I got in the car it hit me, "Did I kill the guy?".
They told me later the cops and ambulance came and guy was out cold until the ambulance got there but i was just knocked out. The alumn-guy told them what happened but said he didn't know the name of the guy who hit him. My friends said that they didn't really pursue it since more than one person told them what happened and it was obviously self-defense. The cops took the gun and the guy off. I was lucky. But that is my experience. One of the most scary moments in my life. Like top two. Only one was scarier when I thought my girlfriend was going to die of cancer.
The the knife i generally carry around is about 12 inches long but I keep it on me without anyone ever knowing i have it. Before the incident i described above i gave little thought that i would actually be put in that situation even with my father telling me and drilling me about it. and this is the reason why i carry a knife now.
@limitless1
I think you should reconsider carrying a 12" knife around. I am not sure where you live but i am willing to bet that it's not legal to do so. Where i live if it's not visible it's considered to be a concealed weapon. Also there are usually limits to the size and type of knife that you can carry. I am posting a link that offers some information on state knife laws.
I live in California. I know its not entirely lawful. I don't bring it into banks, court houses, police stations, places like that. And I only really carry when I think I need to. But, and I'm going to quote from the movie Aliens vs. Predators, i know the movie sucked but the quote has some truth I think, "It's kinda like always caring a condom with you, It's better to have one and not need to use it, then need to use it and not have one."
the law in CA is 2 inches, thats was passed in 09, you are better off to have a unregisterd gun. anything above 2 inch a felony.
if you want to pretend to be in a real knife fight, have your buddy come at you with a stick and see how many times you get stabbed before you do anything but bleed.
the law in CA is 2 inches, thats was passed in 09, you are better off to have a unregisterd gun. anything above 2 inch a felony.
if you want to pretend to be in a real knife fight, have your buddy come at you with a stick and see how many times you get stabbed before you do anything but bleed.
And SECOND BE CONFIDENT AND QUICK IN YOUR ACTIONS.
i tell the guys that i work this same thing all the time. when TSHTF there is not time to double take; you have to be ruthless. now i am not saying kill the guy, but leave nothing to chance.
weapons restrictions in NC are petty strict and luckily for me i live in the county with the highest violent crime rate in the state. 
on top of that, the people that do carry knives are the ones that will posture and cause trouble for no reason. i once witnessed a guy being slashed up in the local mall right outside a shoe store. it was the last pair of size 11 jordan's in the store. i was arrested when i was 16 for carrying a pocket knife, a switch blade, and a butterfly knife; not b/c i was planning to attack someone, but b/c i was being harassed by a local gang. long story short they tried to rush me 5 on 1 at a gas station, cops show, i go to jail for carrying a concealed weapon even after witnessed the whole thing. the gang walked scot free.
i went ahead a couple of days ago and picked up a new gerber to put close at hand when we are out. going through these knife scenarios and seeing the videos of random attacks put me back i that mode.
of course you should steer clear of sketchy places but when the grocery store cereal aisle has become sketchy, you have to be ready for anything i guess.
we ran a few things yesterday the 2 on 1 and it seemed to be a good starting point for engaging the situation. but distance is always your friend. he cant cut you if he cant reach you.
here's a quote from a friend i get material and advice from on a regular basis.
"Three things, First get out of there, If not take the arms and neck out then return the blade to the sender. It is attempted murder."
Im runnin if I have the chance to.
Good idea about wrapping an arm up in a shirt or jacket for defense though. Ill definately keep that in the back of my mind should I ever need to use it but more than likely Im outta there and the guy who pulls a knife on me will probably end up getting "Tanya Harding-ed" at some point. 
Never been in an encounter with a knife but where I live it could very well happen. I live in a rural area and everyone carries pocket/utility knives just to have handy. Surprisingly enough there isnt very much violence involving knives here but there very well could be at a moment's notice.
-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." 
FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!
I agree not to fight against a knife even if you have a knife. Its been said there is no such thing as a knife fighter because they're all dead. You could still be attacked by someone with a knife and the most practical defense I have seen is by the dog brothers.
I really don't want to carry a knife, because the only time I could see using it would be if an attacker had one. I do not want to be in a knife fight. I would rather carry my 9mm. But that isn't always practicle. How do you all feel about a telescopic baton as a defense against a knife. Would the reach, give you the advantadge against a knife wielding attacker?
Two: If running is not an option you should be carrying a GUN! It's worst case scenario time and THE ANTI-GUN a.k.a. PRO-GET-YOURSELF-KILLED lobby, have lied to you and tried to convinced you this day would never come but low and behold you have a knife wielding lunatic in front of you. DONT MAKE IT A FAIR FIGHT! He or she is trying to take your life. Know your state's self-defense laws! Get your concealed to carry permits.
Limmitless -
- So anyone who doesn't carry a gun is "PRO-GET-YOURSELF-KILLED"?
- Who exactly lied to you and told you this day would never come? And, are you then implying that we should tell everyone "carry a gun because YES, someday a knife wielding lunatic will be in front of you?"
- I really expected you to end that story with "that is why I ALWAYS carry a gun". Why would you be so matter of fact about always carrying a gun and then not carry one yourself?
I'd rather have a baton against a knife, but a knife against a gun (only because I refuse to carry a gun for personal reasons), so it's a tricky scenario. I think that the reach of a baton combined with the fact that the dude probably doesn't wanna get the crap bludgeoned out of him would be enough to deal with most knife situations, but if I had a draw a weapon during a tussle for control of a gun I'd much rather have a knife and be able to put the guy away with fewer strikes.
most of the stuff i have found has been static step by step, so if you guys have any videos a little more adrenalized feel free to add.
any thoughts on this style of training if you added a knife in the mix.
@bruceleeroy:
I didn't mean to seem so matter of fact about carrying a gun. Nor do i think that just because someone doesn't carry at gun they are on the "Pro-get-yourself-killed" side, I believe I overstepped with that segment in that regard. I just believe that more people should be ready for those types of situations and not propagate an aura or culture of passivity and fear that will indubitably lead to more victims when there could be something done about it. I am not saying if you disagree with me either do you fall into a category of victim. But there are those out there that would care less if our ability to defend ourselves was brought to almost nothing. We have a right to defend ourselves as responsible warriors.
I DON'T ADVOCATE WHAT I SAID TO BE FOR EVERYONE. This is a free discussion amongst each other in this community. I merely wish to state what is my mode of directive given the situation on moment to moment basis.
The reason I don't carry a gun presently is because I am actually in the process of getting concealed to carry and I am not completed with everything. I own a Ruger P944 40. cal. It has taken me about 2 and a half years to become proficient in skill enough with a handgun at the range and during handgun tactics courses for me to make the jump to become a concealed carrier. But most importantly I had to really mentally make sure I was ready and willing to handle such a responsibility.
I don't know if I'm coming off as a nut. I hope not. I really enjoy shooting at the range for practice and I believe that the warrior of the present time needs to be skillful and mentally prepared to wield the weapon of the times, in this case I believe that to be the gun. Until then I make due with my knife. I've trained to defend myself with a knife diligently. I understand and appreciate those of you here who hold me to a high standard and don't what just any tom, dick, and harry to be ranting about this or that when it comes to the serious matters we are discussing. But I believe I have trained my mind and skills through my life to be of a responsible warrior mindset. And continue to believe it is a natural right to defend one's life and the lives of others if dubious forces pose a clear and present danger to those things, with the tools necessary to ensure ones safety.
I don't know if I clarified or answered your questions adequately but I tried.
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