How the WWE Almost Killed Mixed Martial Arts in America

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I actually found this pretty interesting. I didn't realize McMahon had the veto power on Spike. I am sure he wishes he could go back on his decision now.
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http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/8/17/1627626/how-the-wwe-almost-killed-m...

How the WWE Almost Killed Mixed Martial Arts in America
by JonathanSnowden on Aug 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT in MMA History

In 2004, the mixed martial arts industry was struggling in America. The Fertitta brothers had purchased the UFC at the turn of the decade, but five years later, there was very little return on investment. The brothers dropped tens of millions into the promotion, but it was starting to look like a money pit. They made some strides bringing back the legendary MMA pioneer Ken Shamrock and had done well building up Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz as major stars. But make no mistake-the business was failing. Television was the medium to save the promotion-everyone knew it. But finding an outlet wasn't as easy as it seemed it would be when Zuffa bought the promotion in 2001. Lorenzo Fertitta was growing frustrated:

We went around when we first bought the company, and got together with United Talent Agency, UTA. At the time UFC was a small deal. I think they felt like we were lucky that we were working with them. Today it would be a whole different story. Dana and I flew to LA maybe 50 times. We met with—you name it. MTV. CBS. ABC. ESPN, HBO, Showtime, Spike, USA. We probably met with the Food Channel too. I don’t know. We met with everybody. And to a ‘t,’ every single person said ‘this won’t work. Get out of my office. This is a joke. It’s boring.’ We were just looking at each other going, ‘what are we missing here?’

Today, that seems like ancient history. As Forbes Magazine reported back in 2008, today's Zuffa is like a Tapout ensconced ATM:

It's the Ultimate Money Machine. That night before the Super Bowl 10,700 fans packed the arena, paying an average of $340 for a ticket to witness nine mixed martial arts fights. Another 500,000 fans paid $45 ($55 for high definition) to watch five of the nine fights at home. The total haul from the event: $25 million.

This year UFC is likely to generate $250 million, capturing perhaps 90% of mixed martial arts revenue. The majority of UFC revenues come from the monthly pay-per-view events. Additional cash is made from ticket sales to live fights and licensing fees from its Spike cable shows The Ultimate Fighter and UFC Fight Night . These shows in turn act as promotional tools to drive fans to pay-per-view events. More scratch comes from sales of DVDs and T shirts, as well as downloads from UFC's library of past bouts.

But all the success might not have ever happened if World Wrestling Entertainment hadn't made an important decision. The wrestling promotion's RAW show was the flagship program on SPIKE TV, drawing millions of young viewers and remaining near the top of the cable ratings week after week. WWE owner Vince McMahon had veto power over similar programing on SPIKE. The struggling UFC had finally gotten a television partner on the hook for their inaugural season of The Ultimate Fighter. Now, as former WWE writer Paul Heyman told Ariel Helwani on the MMA Hour, McMahon held the life of the UFC in his hands:

I was there in the room when we decided whether to let The Ultimate Fighter come on after Monday Night Raw. They had the right to approve or decline any programming that followed them..."I told [the WWE], they better not let [the UFC] on ... Yeah, I'm the a--hole that almost turned it down...You should be afraid of anything that will take away from your pay-per-view dollar. They are going to reach into your pocket, rip it open, and all those dollars are going to flow right there.

McMahon's uncharacteristic display of mercy saved the UFC. The Ultimate Fighter, as chronicled in my book Total MMA: Inside Ultimate Fighting, became an instant success and the promotion that had been sucking millions out of Fertitta's epically large wallet was suddenly breaking even. As the wrestling business struggled, the UFC thrived. Today, the UFC does well without RAW as a lead in-but in 2005 it made all the difference, all thanks to the largess of one Vincent Kennedy McMahon.

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"The nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."

--Unknown

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great article....

given his hardcore business tactics i always wondered if there was some relationship to kennedy family of politics. he is cut throat as it gets. but fertitta and white are pretty sly themselves so i bet the meetings between the two companies was intense.

if wwe had stuck with the attitude era they may have a fighting chance. but it would be a longshot for them to grab the ratings anywhere close to ufc. it always bothered me that shamrock and steve blackmon had such lame characters and represented martial arts so poorly.

bottom line is mma has always been more entertaining than wrestling. i think it would have eventually emerged ahead of wrestling regardless of what network picked it up.

if you cant beat them, arrange to have them beaten.
-george carlin

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themadness is right, MMA wouldve emerged anyway. It was only a matter of time.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

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in reality, regardless of content wrestling has always been aimed at kids. even the attitude era, which pissed alot parents off.

most die hard sports fans are into the technical aspects of their favorite sport. mma provides that technicality as well as REAL fighting, that equals a loyal following.

how many times have you heard someone say that the people's elbow trips them up in training.

mma is also a tool for learning, thats a huge plus. whether you are training for fun or competition, you can buy the next pay per view and get tips for landing that sub you have been working. real combat sports are an technique application source.

wrestling just doesnt offer that.

if you cant beat them, arrange to have them beaten.
-george carlin

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I need to be upfront, I use the Peoples Elbow all the time in my submission training!

But you are correct about WWE targeting kids. If you really think about it, most of us were probably WWF fans back in the day. At some point we just transitioned to MMA. It's almost as if WWE is a great fan feeder for UFC. There is obviously some overlap, but it is possible that they can coexist. I can't imagine the WWE not making a profit, it just might not be as high as it used to be.

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Very interesting. I wonder how much of it had to do with legit wrestlers like Kurt Angle who had some interaction with MMA and the UFC at the time. Also wonder how epic the Fertita's wallets really are... They started out with what? 18 or 20 casinos?

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MMA has bled over into pro wrestling so they are benefiting off of eachother. My wife's family is still really big into WWE and sometimes I am forced to watch it. One thing that I have noticed is that the run of the mill "show holds" are becoming actual submission holds and the commentators are starting to use MMA terminology as well. I think this is a bad move for the WWE/TNA b/c by trying to make their matches look more realistic they are giving MMA more exposure.

Why would anyone want to watch a simulated fight when they can watch a real one? This is the mindset that pro wrestling fans are starting to convert to.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

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Gogo!

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The Fertitas just barely retained control of their casinos after they went into bankruptcy last year. They pulled some pretty dirty moves and got out of billions of dollars in debt, so they're less wealthy than they were five years ago by far.

I'd also like to agree with other about the fact that MMA would have emerged with our without WWE.

Here's why. We all watched wrestling growing up, because it was to guys fighting the flip out of each other. It was awesome. Then it started to get tired and silly, and ECW came out. That was MUCH closer to fighting than WWE ever was, and the theme was oriented more towards an adult male audience. At that point Pride was huge, but UFC was still getting rapzored by state athletic committees.

ECW got petered out and left but it was only a couple years later that Pride was putting fights on FSN. From there, the UFC got spike and both were competing for the U.S. market. It was just the evolution of televised fighting. Kids will watch theatrics and men will watch fights. And girls...we'll also watch girls.

P.S. my buddy Rick is fighting at WEC 50 tonight, so check it out. I called him last week and said "good luck this weekend, man." He said "Thanks bro, the fights are on Wednesday." I'm a good friend.

ونحن جميعا الكتب من الدم ، وعندما أردنا فتح نحن الحمراء.

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Wrestling was NOT always aimed at kids.. not until McMahon started his push for "sports entertainment" in the late 80s amd THAT was a move to eliminate the State Athletic Commission from charging them to license the guys and pay for physicals and to keep the Commissions from taking a percentage of the gate.
When you work for that company they'll always beat you over the brow that you are NOT a pro-wrestler.. you are a "sports entertainer".. they even instruct their commentators to talk as little as possible about the action and holds, etc in the ring.
As far as mma bleeding into wrestling.. the roots of that started in Japan with "puroresu" and there are plenty of articles chronicling how this actually happen.. the shooters broke away and started their own booking offices/promotions and things got stiffer and stiffer until the things wound up being 100% shoot.. you can see the way it happened in Japan with guys lieaving the New Japan Pro-Wrestling Offices and those guys Sayama, Maeda, Gotch, Funaki, etc.. formed UWFI and that gave birth to Rings and to Pancrase, which eventually spawned Pride as these guys all traded talent in the dojos back and forth.

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This article doesn't get all of it right.. but its pretty close..

Mention the words "professional wrestling" in the United States and most martial artists will picture in their minds bad acting, ridiculous costumes, and cartoon like tactics such as jumping off the top rope. Certainly, they will not equate it with practical fighting techniques much less the relatively new reality based martial arts competitions. However, the situation in Japan is quite different and can be, to the outside observer, quite confusing. In Japan, the line between the new reality based martial arts competitions and professional wrestling is blurred. Japanese magazines such as BASEBALL SHA and TV shows such as CHAMPION'S CORNERM mix "shoot" organizations such as Pancrase, shooto, SAW and RINGS in with it coverage of mainstream "worked" pro-wrestling organizations such as the WWF, WCW and ECW.

In fact, there is significant cross over in Japan between the two seemingly unrelated groups. All of the important individuals in these "shoot" organizations began in the "worked" All Japan Pro-Wrestling organization. They have also frequently stepped back into the world of Pro-Wrestling. Important figures such as Akira Maeda and Satoru Sayama have periodically returned to engage in "worked" matches. While many focus upon Brazil, the Gracie family and their Jiu-Jitsu when talking about the development of realty based martial arts competitions, there is another story to be told. That story is how "worked" professional wrestling in Japan also developed into a legitimate sport.

Ed "Strangler" Lewis
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
It is important to remember that professional wrestling wasn't always the circus it is today. In the past, there were men who dedicated themselves to the very real tradition of wrestling and engaged in completely real professional bouts. Furthermore, this wrestling was not the collegiate, free style or Greco-Roman wrestling we see today. It was submission wrestling, using techniques these men called "hooks". If you are interested in what real wrestling was I strongly recommend two books; COMBAT SPORTS IN THE ANCIENT WORLD by Michael B. Poliakoff and WESTERN BOXING AND WORLD WRESTLING by John F. Gilbey. In the works is also a book on the many traditions of wrestling by Robert W. Smith. That book, more than 20 years in the making, is eagerly awaited by this author!

Billy Riley
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
These real submission wrestlers, called "hookers" by those in their trade, were the sort of en who sought real challenges and were not afraid to learn anything. Of course, this lead to cross pollination of wrestling styles. European styles mixed with Russian, Indian, Chinese and Japanese styles. There were also many style vs. style matches. In this way, the Japanese became aware of the European traditions.

In 1914, the World Light Heavyweight Champion Ad Santel defeated Tokugoro Ito, a 5th degree black belt in judo, in a jacket match. Because Ito had claimed to be a "Japanese judo champion", after the match Santel claimed to be the "World Judo Champion." This apparently embarrassed the founder of judo, Professor Kano. In response, Professor Kano sent another challenger, 4th degree black belt Daisuke Sakai, to defeat Santel. However, Santel also defeated Sakai.

Ad Santel
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
The challenge matches continued in 1921. In March, Ad Santel challenged the Kodokan to disbute his claim as "World Judo Champion". In the first match, Santel defeated 5th degree black belt Reijiro Nagata by TKO. Santel then drew with 5th degree black belt Hikoo Shoji after fighting for 60 minutes. Based upon these performances, the Japanese became fascinated with the European style of submission wrestling. Given the first opportunity, Japanese wrestlers would flock to learn the secrets of European "hooking".

Two western wrestlers, who as it happen were also two of the greatest western wrestlers ever, had a direct impact upon the Japanese. Lou Thesz is considered by many the greatest "hooker" of his century. Thesz was trained by wrestling legends such as George Tragos, Ed "Strangler" Lewis ("Judo" Gene LeBell's teacher as well), and Ad Santel and won the NWA, the so-called "Undisputed World Heavyweight Championship" in 1948. He was the first "world heavyweight champion" to step onto Japanese soil. Today, the Japanese still consider this belt the most important belt in wrestling and the UWFi used the actual belt donated by Thesz.

The second great western wrestler was Karl Gotch. Karl Gotch received his training at the famous "Snake Pit" Billy Riley Gym in England and won a number of big tournaments in Europe before moving to the United States in 1959. However, Gotch was not treated well in the United States since he was simply a "shooter" (by this time, pro-wrestling in the United States had already deteriorated and consisted mostly of "works") and many were afraid of his "hooks". In contrast, in Japan people considered Karl Gotch the "the God of Pro-Wrestling".

Both wrestlers, but particularly Karl Gotch, enjoyed the admiration they received in Japan and were impressed by the interest of Japanese wrestling stars in European "hooking". Eventually, Gotch taught this tradition, also referred to as "shooting", to a group of Japanese professional wrestlers including Antonio Inoki, Tatsumi Fujinami, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Satoru Sayama (the "Tiger Mask"), Masami Soranaka and Akira Maeda. What is interesting to note is that most of these professional wrestlers already had backgrounds in legitimate martial arts. Masami Soranaka had been a student of "hard core" karate, kodokan judo and sumo. Yoshiaki Fujiwara was already a Muay Thai fighter and black belt in judo. Satoru Sayama had studied Muay Thai with Toshio Fujiwara, and went on to study Sambo with Victor Koga. Thus, the ground was fertile for the development of new hybrid methods.

Antonio Inoki
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While many people have been critical of Antonio Inoki, saying his wrestling skills were weak and noting (correctly) that he was a "work" fighter, he should receive credit for introducing the idea of mixed style matches. Beginning in 1976, Inoki staged a series of mixed matches against fighters of other sports including Willem Ruska (judo gold medalist in the Olympic games in Munich), Chuck Wepner (a tough club boxer) and Willie Williams (world kyokushin karate champion). Of course, the most famous of these was the Antonio Inoki vs. Muhammad Ali match.

Antonio Inoki vs. Muhammad Ali
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Hisaharu Tanabe
Stories vary about whether this was originally supposed to be a "shoot" or a "work" but apparently Ali's camp feared Inoki would try to turn it into a "shoot". It was publicly announced that Inoki was not allowed to use any suplex or submission moves. The result was a 15 round time limit draw, arguably the most boring match in history.

Anonio Inoki's mixed style matches and his pro-wrestling organization's incorporation of many martial arts techniques (notably low kicks and judo/jiu-jitsu submissions) began to interest many of the wrestlers into creating an even more realistic style. On April 10, 1984 Akira Maeda, Rusher Kimura, Ryuma Go, Mach Hayato, and Gran Hamada formed the original UWF, Universal Wrestling Federation. The UWF promoted a "stiff" style of wrestling. The matches remained "worked" but all the strikes and submissions were delivered with full force. Based upon the already existing pro-wrestling tradition, matches were set up with hand signals, body movements, and even talking. However, the UWF was particularly good at setting up matches with very few cues.

The "stiff" style can appear quite realistic to those unfamiliar with it. Matches would end only when one fighter was either KO'd legitimately or decided to stop fighting a submission and gave up. If the pre-determined loser had the pre-determined winner in a tight submission, he would simply release the hold or loosen it up. A few months after the creation of the UWF, Satoru Sayama (who had gained success as the original Tiger Mask in New Japan Pro Wrestling), Yoshiaki Fujiwara and Nobuhiko Takada (who had begun training in "hooking" with Lou Thesz) joined the organization. They moved the UWF in an even more realistic direction. In fact, a few real matches were arranged between UWF wrestlers and outsiders such as boxers or sumo players.

UWFi match
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The original UWF lasted a little more than a year. During a Akira Maeda-Satoru Sayama match on September 2, 1985 Maeda intentionally kicked Sayama in the groin. Those who observed the match say it quickly became 100% "shoot" as Sayama tried to KO'd or choke Maeda in retaliation. After the match, Maeda was fired but the event also revealed that many wrestlers were unhappy with Sayama as well. On September 11, the UWF held its last card at Kourakuen Hall.

Satoru Sayama as "Tiger Mask"
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
(Photo by Dr. Mike Lano)
With the end of the first UWF, Satoru Sayama attempted to establish his own gym and create a new organization. By 1987, Sayama was able to establish Shooto, a completely realistic and legitimate organization with no "worked" fights. Sayama also introduced true NHB to Japan, organizing the Japan Open Vale Tudo and bringing Rickson Gracie to fight.

Others returned to traditional "worked" pro-wrestling. Maeda, Nobuhiko Takada, and Yoshiaki Fujiawara, returned to Antonio Inoki's New Japan Pro-Wrestling organization under the guise of an interpromotional UWF-New Japan feud. However, the situation was short lived. On November 27, 1987 Akira Maeda once again intentionally kicked a wrestler, this time Riki Choshu. The kick, aimed at the face, broke three bones and Maeda was eventually fired, when no wrestler wanted to work with him, in March 1988.

In April, Maeda and Nobuhiko Takada announced that they would start a new UWF. The new UWF limped along without either Satoru Sayama or a young charismatic star. However, in April 1989 Akira Maeda reached an agreement with Antonio Inoki to let Masaharu (Masakatsu) Funaki and Minoru Suzuki leave New Japan for the UWF. Maeda personally trained Funaki and Suzuki in the UWF's "stiff style" wrestling and the group began to thrive with the addition of the two young wrestlers. Later, Maeda also acquired and trained two American wrestlers, Bart Vale and Wayne (Ken) Shamrock.

The UWF reached its peak with their "Atlantis" show at the Tokyo Dome on October 25, 1990. The card featured Akira Maeda vs. Masakatsu Funaki and Nobuhiko Takada vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara as well as Yoji Anjoh and Wayne (Ken) Shamrock in individual bouts. Unfortunately, the UWF continued to have internal problems and on December 1, 1990 UWF President Shinji Jin announced that all wrestlers were fired and disbanded the promotion. This resulted in the creation of three separate and very different organizations in March 1991.

Akira Maeda responded by creating RINGS, an organization which is said to be approximately 60% "worked" but which uses a lot of Russian Sambo fighters and Muay Thai style kickboxers. Among the more notable names recruited are the American Maurice Smith, Dutch fighters Dick Vrij and Peter Aerts, and Russian Sambo fighters Volk Han, Andrei Kopylow and Nokolai Zouev. In recent years, RINGS has also promoted reality based martial arts competitions using Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighters.

Yoshiaki Fujiwara formed the Professional Wrestling Fujiwaragumi (PWFG) with the support of Masakatsu Funaki, Minoru Suzuki, Yusuke Fuke and the American Bart Vale. The PWFG was, like the original UWF, a "stiff style" wrestling organization with worked matches. The next year, Bart Vale would become the PWFG champion and would hold the title for close to three years. Having an American as champion brought some attention to the PWFG. In addition, Bart Vale promoted the PWGF in America as a legitimate, "no holds barred" organization. In the United States, Bart Vale has also created the International Shootfighting Association (ISFA).

Nobuhiko Takada
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
Shortly after the formation of RINGS and the PWFG, Nobuhiko Takada formed the Union of Wrestling Forces International (UWFi), using the remaining UWF talent. Takada succeeded in getting Japan Satellite Broadcasting (WOWOW) to became the new UWFi's sponsor. Takada also created legitimacy for his new organization by using the original NWA belt, donated by his mentor Lou Thesz, as the official UWFi championship belt.

Masa Funaki
Pro-Wrestling Dojo
In 1992, Wayne (Ken) Shamrock left the UWFi to briefly join the PWFG. He then united with Masakatsu Funaki, Minoru Suzuki, and Yusuke Fuke to form the Pancrase organization. Led by Masakatsu Funaki, they claimed to be looking to establish a wrestling organization that was 100% "shoot". Pancrase had their first show on September 21, 1993. In December 1994, Wayne (Ken) Shamrock became the first King of Pancrase, defeating Funaki in semi-final and Manabu Yamada in final. However, to establish themselves and sell tickets, early Pancrase matches were frequently "stiff style" with pre-determined outcomes. Recently, Pancrase matches have become more legitimate.

Despite the prevalence of "worked" matches, most Japanese wrestlers considered what they did to be "real". They believed their techniques were valid and that they were good fighters. The same month Wayne (Ken) Shamrock captured the King of Pancrase title, UWFi wrestler Yoji Anjoh traveled to Los Angeles to challenge Rickson Gracie. Unfortunately for Anjoh, Rickson Gracie brutally defeated him in around 3 minutes. The defeat raised questions about the impact of "worked" matches and led some wrestlers in organizations such as RINGS and Pancrase to call for more "shoot" matches.

The blurred line between "shoot" organizations and mainstream "worked" (and quite ridiculous) wrestling was once again demonstrated in 1995 when the magazine BASEBALL SHA sponsored an interpromotional event at Tokyo Dome. Wrestlers from "shoot" organizations like RINGS, Pancrase, UWFi and the PWFG appeared on the same card as wrestlers from New Japan, All Japan, FMW, and IWA Japan. Later that year, New Japan Pro-Wrestling promoted a New Japan vs. UWFi card with a record-breaking crowd of 67,000. In main event, Keiji Mutoh defended the IWGP heavyweight title against Nobuhiko Takada.

UWFi match
Bushido web site
By combining with New Japan Pro-Wrestling, the UWFi scucessfully rebounded after nearly going out of business early in 1995. Nobuhiko Takada's "winning" of the IWGP title (the match, like all New Japan bouts was a mainstream pro-wrestling "work") helped save UWFi financially. However, in the view of some fans it compromised the UWFi's "stiff style" reputation. Lou Thesz, upset by the blatant mixing of the two styles, asked Nobuhiko Takada to vacate his UWFi title. Takada complied and subsequently established a new organization called Kingdom.

Suzuki vs. Rutten
Full Contact archives
The creation of Pancrase in 1993 deprived the PWFG of four of their major stars and in the following years the organization started having fewer and fewer shows. In an effort to finance the organization, Yoshiaki Fujiwara once again appeared on mainstream "worked" professional wrestling shows for New Japan. The appearances further undermined the image of the promotion and did not provide the necessary funds. On November 19, 1995 the PWGF folded. All of its members, with the exception of Yoshiaki Fujiwara, left the Fujiwaragumi and formed "Battle arts."

The current situation remains rather blurred. The Shooto organization has lost Satoru Sayama (who has returned to mainstream "worked" pro-wrestling for financial reasons) but remains 100% "shoot". Pancrase appears to have evolved into a "shoot" organization as well. However, they have lost their major star, Wayne (Ken) Shamrock, to the WWF. RINGS remains approximately 60% "worked" with a few reality based martial arts matches on its cards. Akira Maeda participates in both RINGS matches and the occasional mainstream "worked" match for New Japan. Nobuhiko Takada's Kingdom organization continues to promote the "stiff style" but yet Takada has faced Rickson Gracie in a reality based martial arts match and two Kingdom wrestlers were in a recent UFC tournament. There is another "shoot" organization called SAW (submission arts wrestling). Unfortunately, I have no information at this time about either SAW or "Battle arts".

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Thanks for the history kev, as a former smark I love hearing about the good old days of wrestling especially the Japanese organizations that I could only find through tape trading back in the day. Did you ever work any matches in Japan?

11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!

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Took the words right out of my mouth, but with much richer detail, Kev.

I've been on the 'Indie' circuit of wrestling for 12 years and I've seen first hand what it's degenerated to. Thankfully, I've always been a fan of puroresu and after getting my hands on U-Style last year and lots of backtracking, both intentional and otherwise, as well actually training for and having my first ammy match in October, I'm glad I made my decision so far. Wrestling is still a passion, and I couldn't bring myself to watch mainstream since '05. Even running into names like Tatanka in Germany, I've learned that they can't make much of the current nonsense on television either, and I see why - they were the ones who had a legit athletic background. If you go to an Indie show now, the majority of the 'wrestlers' you see look like anything but wrestlers. Given all that I've done recently with training my (the guy I roll with has a BJJ Purple Belt, with a background in Judo and Muay Thai), I've taken that knowledge and added it to what smattering of Catch I had and thankfully found Erik Paulson and Coach Iaskevich's footage to be very helpful in guiding back to what wrestling used to be. I also look forward to getting back in the cage when it's time as well the grappling circuit. I still get in the ring, but don't expect me to do any bodyslams, which I don't to begin with.

That half hatch takeover, on the other hand, I'd do at the first opportunity...

Thanks again Kev.

'What's this? You took a shot in the lips... and you look like Jimmy Walker!? Well, that'll do it...'

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I understand that pro wrestling was spawned from catch and I really loved the history lesson, though Ive read it before. I was just pointing out that the WWE is now using MMA terminology and MMA themed holds that were non-exsistent during my WWF fanboy days. I know that alot of their "show holds" are applicable when done correctly (tested them on my lil brother) and come from catchwrestling but as the photo of "The Undertaker" doing a go-go plata shows they are paying special attention to modern MMA techniques.

I remember seeing a preview for a TNA PPV that showed Kurt Angle decked out in ankle wraps and MMA gloves, throwing round kicks to the legs of wrestlers and using various submission holds.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

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You can thank some of the time Angle spent in Japan for his switch up in TNA; I don't think Vince would let him do that if he was on contract, lol. Much of what you see on television now is a highly diluted version of what use to be wrestling - even Lucha Libre, the Mexican form suffered. Rey Misterio, Jr., who practically invented new acrobatic moves every night when he was in Mexico, got dumbed down to 2 or 3 'signature' moves when he got to WWF/WWE, because McMahon didn't want everyone doing what someone else did, so he everyone on the roster crystallized to a specific set of moves. It's practically slow death when that happens. Meanwhile, in MMA and grappling, you have innovations to basic techniques popping up left and right, from different defenses to set ups for basic submissions.

'What's this? You took a shot in the lips... and you look like Jimmy Walker!? Well, that'll do it...'

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The only thing positive that Vince ever did was outlaw a couple of extremely stupid highspots (finishing moves) that guys were killing one another with.. of course all bets are off on that if the guy who wants to do the move is getting a promotional push for a title or pay-per-view.

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What finishers did he outlaw, out of curiosity? Must have been some crazy stuff. I have mad respect for guys who can fling their bodies from crazy heights onto other guys and objects and then get up and do it again. I have trouble talking myself into basic acrobatics off of the high dive LOL.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

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I think one was pile driver off the top rope.

11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!

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Yeah I would imagine the room for error on that move is very slim.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

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A lot of wrestlers don't really like or respect those guys in that they're kinda viewed as more gymnast than wrestler.. of course.. the fewer and fewer of us "old timers" (for lasck of a better term).. there around.. the more these guys kinda become the norm..
Shooting Star Press was outlawed until they decided to give Evan Bourne a push.. back when Billy Kidman was in the WWE, he came off the top rope and landed knees first on a couple of guys.. a few got concussions.. one lost an ear.. one wound up with brain damage.. this was a move invented by Japan's Jushin (or Jushyn original spelling) Liger.. between himself and Sayama (the original Tiger Mask) they came up with most of the stuff that the high flyers do today back in the 80s and 90s.. difference was that they knew what they were doing and there was no reckless abandon.. they were always in control.. SCARY thing is that Brock Lesnar can do this move.. and there's even two vids out there of him doing this where he either hurt himself or his opponent.. in the match with Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania.. he did the move and short judge himself on the distance he needed and drove himself forehead first into the mat.. from that height is scary enough for anyone, but at that weight?!?!.. Shock
The Gotch Driver..Its a no knees version of a tombstone piledriver.. folks really don't realize just how dangerous this is and no matter who gives it to you.. you almost always are actually coming down on your head and neck in some fashion.. Scott Steiner back when they still did squash matches with jobber.. he dropped a guy onto his head, breaking his neck and his collar bone.. the guy wound up with permanent paralysis on side and some vision problems.. it was their very first televised matched in the company with him and his brother as a tag team..
The 450 Splash.. again outlawed until they wanted to give someone a push recently.. several guys have done this who were way too big to do it and permanently hurt their opponents.. having a 230lb'er hit you knees first, full weight when he misses his mark.. well you can guess..
Then there's the chair shots.. WWE recently told their boys NO more taking chair shots without getting your hands up.. during their "attitude" era this was how the boys would get them selves over as being tough.. taking an unswered chair shot full force to the skull.. some one will eventually come up with trauma induced parkinson's (pugilista).. TNA had Rob Terri a few weak take one and get a "hardway" (letting another guy intentionally bust you open).. it was absolutely the dumbest thing I'd seen in a couple of months..LITERALLY braindamaged..
The boys have forgotten that you don't bump one another.. YOU bump for a guy to get him over.. NO ONE should actually bump another guy and cause him anymore damage than is necessary.. its enough wear and tear over the course of a career to begin with. Classic example was back when Owen Hart (RIP) was still alive.. he was working a three way with Lex Luger and Davey Smith (RIP).. Lex uses his personality as a form of birth control.. he is/was INSANELY huge.. like a comic book character ripped and he went to press slam Owen over his head (btw, Owen was a Canadian National Champion at one point).. Owen didn't go up for Lex and even though Lex outweighed Owen by 50-70 lbs of insane muscle.. he couldn't get him up for the slam.. Davey came in.. grabbed Owen.. Owen went right up for Davey and he walked a full circle around the ring while holding Owen over his head. Lesson in co-operation learned.
Guys have also lost respect for the fact that you are literally putting your life/health in another guys hands everynight.

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tat2edup's picture
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6644 Posts
7700 Points
Senior Red Jacket

Like I said, mad respect for those who are daring enough to do that stuff. It hurts me to belly flop at the pool, I couldnt imagine doing that type of stuff onto canvas, plywood, concrete etc.

-Adam Mays "Courage is endurance for one moment more" "If size mattered, the elephant would be the king of the jungle." FREESTYLE AMERICAN SHOOT TEAM Thanks to eagles for the sig!

KevinDillard's picture
Offline
LF ARMY #061
1367 Posts
1584 Points
Blue Jacket

The Sprint/Running Powerbomb (PERMANENTLY banned)..
for those of you familiar with the powerbomb.. you see it all the time now in mma.. imagine picking/flipping a guy up for that.. taking a running start from one corner across the ring and then dropping the guy while you throw your legs out from under you and sit down with him.. so he's falling and carrying your weight.. this was originally a "little man's" move.. and the big guys just did the normal variant..
D'Lo Brown and ex-Denver Broncos Darren "Puke/The Droz" Drozdorf are having a match.. these guys are both in the 275 to 320 range.. D'Lo gives or tries to give Droz this running powerbomb.. dumps him on his wig and now his a parapalegic.. total, permanent and complete loss of any movement.
Tragically bad judgement on BOTH guy's part and absolutely un-necessary.

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