Wing Chun
Just recently watched a Fight Quest episode about Wing Chung, and I know while on the surface it seems like any other art like karate, it actually seems like it would have some good applications for MMA. I was just wondering what you guys' opinions were on it, whether you think it's worth it to train in or applicable in MMA. It's a very distinct but effective style it seems.
The episode was good but you have to remember they are trying to make the style look good. During the multiple attacker scenario the guys waited to attack the wing chun master one at a time but when the fight quest guy did it they all bum rushed him. Also the fight at the end only allowed wing chun techniques and when the fight quest guys slipped back into their boxing styles they dropped the wing chun guys.
11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!
The footwork isn't practical. But for really tight spaces where you can't get full extension on your punches, it is awesome.
Remember how jkd came about? bruce did find wing chun practical for real fighting and had to break away from it
I actually began grappling years ago at a wing chun school my son was doing karate at. They had a 1 night a week grappling class that I soon outgrew and went to a real BJJ school. My son, 6 at the time, trained for about a year, but grew bored of the Katas that were taught every night instead of self defense moves. Can you blame and energetic 6 year old? anyway, They had friday night sparring, which I sparred against a couple different wing chun blackbelts weekly. lol..... its funny how many basic, and off the wall techniques one can learn and train for many years to aquire a blackbelt in wing chun...... its even funnier how little amount of those techniques they were actually able to pull off on a resisiting opponent with only minimal boxing technique (which was me at the time). Not to mention the fact that this was only 'Light-medium' sparring. Dont beleive the hype dude. Of course every style will have things that are adaptable to the cage or MMA. Seriously though, dont waste your time! Kata is not for the cage!
Checking with the bottom of your foot is good; I have done that against good kickers, if they don't get the legs toohigh off the ground.... its rather unexpected, i'd daresay against seasoned standing fighters it wouldn't do much good; I dunno...
Virtually every martial art has some good qualities. Bruce Lee started with Wing Chun but even in his books from 40 years ago now understood the importance of learning the positives of different styles.
Good qualities you should be able to find in any martial art - (assuming some ass clown isn't teaching it)
- conditioning
- physical awareness
- balance
- center line training (maybe not exact centerline training but the principal of keeping everything in tight)
- confidence and spirit building
MMA is a sport, people take stuff from everything to throw in there. Some more practical than others.
Just don't ever get bogged down too much in the snobby tradition. 
Totally disagree with some of the people on here that says it has no place Example Vitor Belford used the forward blast (punches) and people had hell with it Watch his older fights in the UFC. Bruce Lee did not discard the art totally .Granted holding centerline all the time is ignorant in my mind I would not rely totally on this art alone but pak sauo and other things do have value. standing and on the ground (stickey hands ) and such.
Western boxing > Wing Chun.
Double leg takedown > Wing Chun
Grasshopper - I would have to disagree with you regarding Vitor Belfort. I'm guessing your referencing his KO of Wandy. Belfort was using and aggressive 1-2 combo. The footwork, punches, and movement were all boxing none of it resembled wing chun. In his other fights Belfort used a lot of shovel hooks charging in or quick 1-2s to KO his opponents. It was straight up boxing not wing chun.
11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!
Any martial art can be effective in a fight situation. Problem is that people don't take the time to refine anything nowadays. Recently I've seen people actually focusing on their footwork. The mma fad is quite hilarious. How can fighters be working on their muay thai/ kickboxing/ and boxing when they have no concept of how to stand balanced and move balanced? How can they just be discovering footwork now when it is essential basic foundation stuff? Most mma gyms I've gone to is all pad work and flash, no real focused specialized training. Going through the motions and making a workout out of it. I've seen mma fad classes being run at Bally's and LA Fitness. Someone posted images of an mma school running at a walmart on lockflow!
I would give the edge to a good wing chun guy over a good mma guy in a street fight situation. One reason: MMA guys are automatically trained to instinctually grab and hold due to their sport style training. I've seen way too many MMA fighters drop a guy with a kick or punch and then immediately jump into the persons full guard. Same thing happens on the feet. A fighter gets the other guy in trouble with a strike or two and then they clinch and hold to let the opponent recover.
I feel that we do not see too much refined specialized areas in MMA other than grappling and an occasional striking phenom.
I understand why you guys dismiss other martial arts. Your probably being fed the same misinformation that I've been fed. For instance, at my dojo going for a kimura or figure four from your half guard is considered bullshit technique. In the past month, three of my training partners have had their arms tweaked or busted when attacked by a new student in his half guard. My instructors are completely at fault for this. The stuff that they have labelled "bullshit" has broken my main training partners arm. He didn't even know how to shift his weight to create a moment to attempt an escape, yet alone know an escape for the lock.
Wing chun energy could be applied in an mma fight if the fighter has specialized enough in the martial art to use it. A couple years back there was a fighter, can't recall his name, that broke into the scene with a capioera background. Most people would dismiss capioera, seeing it as too dance- like and flashy, but he was able to knock people out with it and apply it in a fight situation.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss wing chun. You'd all be quite pissed if someone called mma training bullshit and impractical now wouldn't you? How's this sound, "MMA training will get you killed in a real fight?" How many times have you heard this, "That grappling stuff will get you stabbed to death. Can't fight multiple opponents with BJJ! You'll get stomped on by his buddies." Any of these statements sound familiar?
My favorite response is this. If your going to waste time degrading it, go out and buy a firearm. A gun won't work in mma, but it will sure as hell deter someone from robbing you/assaulting you/ raping you. As for stopping power, my trigger finger will easily defeat all of your refined technique, conditioning, mentality, ect...
"I understand why you guys dismiss other martial arts. Your probably being fed the same misinformation that I've been fed. For instance, at my dojo going for a kimura or figure four from your half guard is considered bullshit technique."
Wrong, just because your instructors made a blatant mistake doesn't mean all the others have too. This technique has never been considered "bullshit" anywhere that I've trained. My instructor demos this tech every once in awhile and he is old school Carlson Gracie BJJ. If this kind of thing happens often switch gyms.
Also don't forget that some people only train for the pursuit of becoming a better grappler or MMA fighter and don't even really care about the self defence aspect.
Everyone here has made a good arguement both for, and against, WC. I agree that it has it's place in the Martial Arts world, and for street application, some of the art is very, very good, but I am just honestly answering the question that was posed: is WC a good base for MMA.
Again, my answer is an unequivocal: No.
The art (WC) has many things going for it as a self-defense base: Efficient footwork principles, strong balance principles, centerline protection, short, efficient punching, hand and leg immobilization, theory of facing, etc., etc.
BUT, the art was designed to be used against other Kung Fu based systems nearly 300 years ago, by a woman who needed every possible advantage she could get when facing bigger, stronger men trained in said Kung Fu based systems. Not modern, bigger, stronger men and women trained in a mixture of arts designed to cover every range of combat.
I studied Wing Tsun for 9 years, and taught for 3 as an assistant to my instructor. Those of you who know me know I teach Muay Thai, and Sombo (no it's not an incorrect spelling, look it up, I don't want to waste time arguing), Filipino Martial arts, and some other stuff. My Muay Thai coach was also my WC instructor. I went to him first to learn WC, and one day asked about how Muay Thai would fare vs WC. His answer: "A good round kick would smash right through your WC blocks." Then he proved it to me. I started training Muay Thai.
I'm not downplaying WC as a martial art, I'm simply pointing out that there are methods trained in MMA, and training methods employed in MMA, that negate most of what WC has to offer. One glaring example in my mind is that in WC there is no feinting or faking. It is considered wasted movement. That is simply an antiquated idea that has no bearing on modern MMA training, or application.
I love the art of WC, but I'm no fool. To compare WC with MMA is to compare a Fiat, and a Ferrari. Both were designed to be "Sports" cars, but one was obviously designed better, with more attention to actual racing.
@zombiekev:
Pad work is an essential part of training. Of coarse you will see guys hitting the pads when you walk into an MMA gym. If you don’t think so then I don’t know what to tell you. I am not sure who you are talking about when you say “recently I've seen people actually focusing on their footwork”. Are you talking about pro fighters or just anyone in general? Maybe these guys you are talking about found themselves fighting a little flat? What is wrong with brushing up on your footwork? Sure it’s the basics but there is nothing wrong with brushing up on the basics. Also, I don’t see anything wrong with an MMA workout class or a school opening up in a Walmart. Going to the gym can be boring so why not try something a little different? As far as the MMA school in a Walmart goes, smart business decision. Look at how many people shop at Walmart.
As for the whole street fighting thing, I would definitely give the edge to the MMA fighter. The reason for this is an MMA fighter is more well rounded and has the abilities to cover striking, take downs, and ground work. Clinching is part of fighting. Sure sometimes guys rush in when they have their opponent rocked and end up getting tied up and the other guy has time to recover. The other times they get in there and finish the fight.
“I feel that we do not see too much refined specialized areas in MMA other than grappling and an occasional striking phenom“. You do realize that it’s MMA and not style vs. style anymore right? What we are seeing is fighters who are good at all aspects of MMA. It is really hard these days to walk into MMA and be only good at one aspect and expect to find success.
Look, if want to train in Wing Chun or any form of Kung Fu for tradition sakes, then go ahead and do so. Keep in mind that times have changed and while you are stuck in the past others have evolved.
I agree that WC isn't good for the cage, at least alone anyways. I also agree that it has it's applications, just as any martial does, but I was wondering if you guys think that trapping has any use in MMA (and by trapping, i'm not only referring to WC, but also, JKD, FMA, Silat, etc.). I think that if you worked on it, then it could be useful to some degree while clinched up on the cage and on the ground, but that's just me, what do you guys think?
^ I think the ground is about the only place trapping really works at all. I use it all the time in MMA sparring, but I learned it in FMA. The problem with trapping on your feet is tyhat the opponent always has an escape vector availble behind him. He can back out of a trapping attacking by stepping back. You pin him to a wall or cage or to the ground, and his avenues of escape are cut off. Trapping is such a refined technique from standing anyways. It takes years to actually get it to start working for you. The timing and speed required makes it rare to see used successfully. Using it on the ground can be taught and learned very easily though IMO.
"Don't let up until you hear cartilage snap, or they crap in their pants."
"Kickin' me was right. Checkin' to see if I was okay was wrong.."
Sal Bandini
Yeah, and that karate stuff doesn't work either...
The fact is all arts subscribe to a set of philosophies that predicate their success or failure (even a gun, which is no garuntee, especially if the assailant is in close). Whoever can impose their gameplan is going to suceed. I'm going to bet that Wing Chun can be applied in a very useful and effective way, but right now there's no Machida that has cracked the code.
Somone will have to put in the time to find out the ways and means, the ins and outs, dos and do-nots of building a striking style center on Wing Chun. Even then, they will proably not have success, it'll be one of their students, or student's student that finally puts it all together.
The reason why I accept boxing/muay thai/wrestling/bjj/sambo etc to work is because I've seen them work in real fights against resisting opponents with little to no rules. For me, to accept that something works I have to see it done in a real situation. And I need to see the techniques claimed in said style to be used in the fight. Now if you just want to learn a train in something that's fine and dandy do what makes you happy.
11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!
@Killbot, great answer. Trapping can work, but not as you've most often seen it taught, in series format. It does however take time to develop. When you think of trapping in actual use, multiply all of the time it took to learn basic punching and parrying skills, including the timing, distance, angulation, etc., by 10, and you'll begin to be able to trap in live situations. But only basic singles, like Pak Sao, Jut Sao, Lop Sao, etc.
Most fighters with decent skill have already developed a large amount of tactile sensitivity and automatically work to escape a trap without thinking about it. We all want our hands free to do work. So to make it effective you've really got to put your flight-time in.
But, if you think about it, you do see trapping performed a bit already. By definition (at least Bruces) trapping is nothing more than momentarily stopping part of an opponents body to affect a strike. I'll bet you already do this quite a bit, but have had the idea of "Trapping" burned into your psyche as what has been shown in JKD and WC videos.
Truth is, when I'm in mount, and I pull my opponents hand down to hit him in the face, I've just performed a trap. Against the cage, when I sweep my opponents hand outside to underhook, while hitting him in the body or head, I just performed a trap (Huen Sao).
If that sounds overly simplified, it should! Trapping is a by-product of hitting! I only trap if I need to, and again, never in those series of traps you see practiced on every video on the market. As Bruce taught it, every single trap should be followed by a hit. So it's Trap & hit, not trap, trap, trap hit.
ZombieKev........
ZombieKev I usually dont respond like this, and I know Im gonna sound like a total prick, but your post was ridiculous on way too many levels and I couldn't help but comment.
Ridiculous topic #1- "Footwork,balance, and movement" - the reason you dont see many mma guys in a boxing or muai thai stance is the fact that this is mma. In boxing and muai thai, you really dont need to be concerned with being single/double legged, hip- thrown, or high crotched. Most mma guys have adapted more of a hybrid stance due to this. Its not that they do not have balance, footwork, and movement.
Ridiculous topic#2- "wing chun has edge over mma guy"- seriously, what planet do you live on? They have LockFlow.com there? Why do you think that just because a guy trains in mixed martial arts he is going to go straight to the ground, or straight in to a clinch with someone? Obviously you've never seen a GSP or Anderson Silva fight have you? Also I beleive the thread was about how wing chun would adapt to the sport of MMA, not how bad ass it was in a street fight.
Ridiculous topic#3- "refined speacialized areas"- ummmmm..... maybe thats cause most of the stuff youve been watching and taught from old kung fu movies does not actually work against someone with half a brain in a real fight. Yeah it looks cool, but maybe you havent seen much of that stuff in the cage for a reason. What refined specialized area would you like to see performed in the cage? Drunken Monkey, the crane style....
Ridiculous topic #4 "Kimura BS"- ok seriously, do you train at 'Rex-Kwon Do'? if they are teaching you kimuras from 1/2guard are BS, maybe its time to quit the MC-Dojo and join a real school bro. nuff said.
Ridiculous topic #5- "wouldn't we be mad if someone said mma training is BS and it would get us killed or stabbed"- hmmmmm......lol.....ok. Im guessing you study wing chun, and let me guess, you could defeat multiple thugs, or a knife or gun attack with your refined specialized moves that your teacher who thinks kimuras are BS taught you right?
In closing: The gun comment was probably the smartest thing youve said during this post. As for the gun stopping a robbery, rape, etc.... thanks for the advice, but Ill just settle for MMA training instead. 
how much live sparring do they actually do in a wing chun class?
This could come back to my argument about Mixed martial artest and mma guys. I think a true Mixed Martial artest is some one who has trained in arts then blended them together. A mma guy is some one who trains in MMA who may or may not have a art he has trained in. I would I like to think guys like Lyoto, GSP would be true mixed martial artest. Just becuse you haven seen it work dosent mean it wont. Who would of thought a front kick would ko some one?
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This to me is like the whole Lyoto thing. Yes, he's got a Karate background and his stance reflects that the way he leans back. But a lot of what he does is a mix (the 1st M in MMA). It's not like Tae Kwon Do guys in the UFC bounce around like you see in the Olympics.
I'm also not convinced of the "Stephen Segal" front kick. Now, if in his next fight Anderson walks to the middle of the ring and says "whats a matter, you think I have an advantage?" and then he gets down on both knees does some crazy wrist lock throw and knife hands the guy unconcious I'll be impressed.
I think what Zombikev was trying to say about that half-guard kimura is that even though the technique is probably 75% BS, if you disregard it completely to the point where you don't even acknowledge it as an option for your opponent to take, then just as the Seagal Kick, Anthony Pettis's wall Kick, that Copoeira Kick, or even Silva's uppercut elbow, that 25% comes to effect, because you don't even see it coming. At that point however, it really just becomes an Unorthodox technique, but Unorthodoxy is something that professional fighters have to deal with; two of the UFC's champions are famous for being Unorthodox! Going back to that elbow, Silva said that he had seen it in some Muay Boran videos and was inspired to incorporate it into his arsenal after watching Ong Bak. Although he's only gotten one K.O since then, if you watch some of his latest fights closely, you'll see that he's continued to use it; he tried it on both Maia and Sonnen (so it wasn't just a lucky shot). Same goes for Jones's spinning back elbow, you can really make "BS" moves work effectively, by setting it up so that you catch your opponent off-guard with something they would never expect to see coming....which i'm pretty sure is the basis behind Unorthodox fighting.
Great comments!
Back in the early 90's Paul Vunak's trapping VHS tape (that's a big rectangular DVD for you youngsters) completely changed my striking and I incorporated it into my Tae Kwon-Do. I used it effectively to win countless tournaments (point fighting) So yes, Wing Chun has value as a self-defense martial art. Although, I am not so sure it translates well into the sport of MMA. That said I like Bruceleeroy's first comment:
Virtually every martial art has some good qualities. Bruce Lee started with Wing Chun but even in his books from 40 years ago now understood the importance of learning the positives of different styles.
Good qualities you should be able to find in any martial art - (assuming some ass clown isn't teaching it)
- conditioning
- physical awareness
- balance
- center line training (maybe not exact centerline training but the principal of keeping everything in tight)
- confidence and spirit building
Wasn't FightQuest cancelled like 2 years ago? Where did you "just recently" watch it?
Are we pretending like the 1st 10 or 20 UFC's didn't happen? This seems like a thread that would have appeared on a message board in the days of the proto-internet.
Doesn't it seem logical that some exceedingly talented Wing Chun/Tsun practitioner would have blazed a trail through all the BJJ/Muay Thai/Wrestling guys 15 years ago, or some time since then? Even the guys who have a traditional background (e.g. Lyoto) fight with an ancient base, but what we all see in the cage is modern MMA.
Somebody post that clip of the Wing Chun man crying to the M-1 Global scouts in Europe.
Fight Quest was just recently added to netflix streaming so its not out of the question that DrMcNinja just recently watched it. But I completely agree with what you just said. And Shaun Obasi (the wing chun man at the M1 tryouts) is someone that a lot of wc advocates parade around as proof that wc works in mma. However the man is 1-2 and the lone win came from some wrestling and ground and pound tactics. LOL
11th dan in Parnes Jiu-Jitsu, it's one more than Ransom's. Real PJJ goes to 11!
Go Netflix for resurrecting an obscure 2 year old show on an educational cable channel that's a copy of another show.
Doesn't that goon tearfully profess "I'm a Wing Chun man! I'll be a Wing Chun man 'til I die!"
P.S. Does anybody else notice that the new posts are not moving the threads to the top of the list on the front page? I tried to start a thread on that, but of course, it didn't appear on the front page.
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Definitely not a good art for MMA. Some of the theories are sound (protecting centerline, facing, etc.) but in use it's a poor choice. Don't believe the Ip Man movies!
Lucky is the man who never has to confront what he is truly capable of.